A Bad Buy Tent

[Graham G]

I recently bought a Terra Nova Laser tent, intending to get into lightweight
back-packing. I decided on this tent partly from advertised data and partly
because I had thought that Terra Nova was a good firm. Having had several
cheap tents over many years, this was to be my treat!
I found the tent to be very poor indeed. The flysheet lacked rigidity and I
was not convinced that I had erected it correctly because the instructions
were incomprehensible and incorrect in several respects. Two examples:
There was a device for opening a vent in the flysheet from inside the tent;
I gather this is a recent development and was not mentioned at all in the
instructions. For a long time, I could not undertsand what all these
strings were for.
The instructions told you to erect the flysheet first and then attach the
inner tent: when mine arrived, the inner was already attached to the
flysheet.
On emailing Terra Nova, I was sent an A4 sheet of revised instructions.
These referred to "the ropes attached to each end of the inner". When I
emailed Terra Nova to say that my inner had no ropes attached, I was told
that this part did not apply to the Terra Nova!
After more of this sort of frustraion, I returned the tent to the supplier
for a refund.
More research led me to the conclusion that the Laser is a poor imitation of
the Hilleberg Akto. I have now bought one of these and am delighted. One
dealer said that the Laser is a poor design, but that some other Terra Nova
tents are very good.
Incidentally, the Laser is made in China; I wonder how much of the £200+
cost goes to China?

[Boo]

Post by Graham G
I recently bought a Terra Nova Laser tent, intending to get into lightweight
back-packing. I decided on this tent partly from advertised data and partly
because I had thought that Terra Nova was a good firm. Having had several
cheap tents over many years, this was to be my treat!
I found the tent to be very poor indeed. The flysheet lacked rigidity and I
was not convinced that I had erected it correctly because the instructions
There was a device for opening a vent in the flysheet from inside the tent;
I gather this is a recent development and was not mentioned at all in the
instructions. For a long time, I could not undertsand what all these
strings were for.
The instructions told you to erect the flysheet first and then attach the
inner tent: when mine arrived, the inner was already attached to the
flysheet.
On emailing Terra Nova, I was sent an A4 sheet of revised instructions.
These referred to "the ropes attached to each end of the inner". When I
emailed Terra Nova to say that my inner had no ropes attached, I was told
that this part did not apply to the Terra Nova!
After more of this sort of frustraion, I returned the tent to the supplier
for a refund.
More research led me to the conclusion that the Laser is a poor imitation of
the Hilleberg Akto. I have now bought one of these and am delighted. One
dealer said that the Laser is a poor design, but that some other Terra Nova
tents are very good.
Incidentally, the Laser is made in China; I wonder how much of the £200+
cost goes to China?

Hi Graham, was your tent a Laser or a LaserLite ? I have an early version of
the latter and had none of your problems. Mine goes up easily (helped by the
fact that the inner and outer go up and come down as one, never needing to be
unclipped in the process). Mine also has no problems with the flysheet : once
up this is tight enough, though not like a drumskin.

I believe the Laser and LaserLite are basically two versions of the same tent
and the inner is clipped to the outer, seperated by two short poles. Mine has
elastic guys on the inner that hook over the same pegs as hold down the
flysheet, works well and saves weight. I don't know if these are what were
referred to in your instruction sheet ?

I think all these single-hooped designs originally stemmed from a design by
Robert Saunders called the Spacepacker which was a breakthrough that has in many
respects never been exceeded or equalled. If RS had kept more abreast with
modern fabric technology then I doubt I would have ever owned a tent other than
a Spacepacker. I don't think you can call the Laser/Lite an imitation of the
Hilleberg and it is better in several respects : mine is well over half a kilo
lighter than the Acto I weighed and the ultralight version of the LaserLite is
advertised as being 200g lighter than that. Also ventilation on the Acto is not
as good as the LaserLite and I've read reports saying that condensation is a
fairly prevalent issue with that tent (I heven't used one muyself though so it's
obviously hard to say how much of an issue it is - all tents suffer condensation
to some extent).

I'm just posting this as a counterweight to your experiences - I'm happy enough
with my LaserLite to be seriously contemplating buying the ultralight version in
addition to the one I've got.

Cheers,

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Boo
I think all these single-hooped designs originally stemmed from a design
by Robert Saunders called the Spacepacker which was a breakthrough that
has in many respects never been exceeded or equalled. If RS had kept
more abreast with modern fabric technology then I doubt I would have
ever owned a tent other than a Spacepacker.

How is Saunders' high tenacity silicone elastomer coated ripstop nylon
particularly lagging behind other firms' high tenacity silicone
elastomer coated ripstop nylon?

While you're fair to point out the Spacepacker hasn't changed much for
years I think it's more the case that the others have caught it up,
rather than left it behind (as far as fabrics go, anyway: it could
reasonably be argued that the finishing on Saunders tents isn't as good
as, say, Hillebergs). That the Spacepacker costs ~£250 now, and also
cost ~£250 in the late 1980s is a measure of how radical it was when it
was introduced.

While the SP was the first single hoop it clearly shows Robert Saunders'
experience with primraily ridge designs. It's a ridge tent made with a
single hoop. The Akto, OTOH, is more of a 1 pole tunnel tent, which
isn't surprising given Hilleberg's ususal specialism in that direction.

I still own and use a Spacepacker, and as it's still a rare example of a
sub-2Kg two person tent with a decent sized porch and doors for each
occupant I'd probably get another if the current one went AWOL. It's
not perfect, but its better porches and more flexible door setup than
anything else I've seen in its class forgives it an awful lot of niggles.

Pete.

[Boo]

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Boo
I think all these single-hooped designs originally stemmed from a
design by Robert Saunders called the Spacepacker which was a
breakthrough that has in many respects never been exceeded or
equalled. If RS had kept more abreast with modern fabric technology
then I doubt I would have ever owned a tent other than a Spacepacker.

How is Saunders' high tenacity silicone elastomer coated ripstop nylon
particularly lagging behind other firms' high tenacity silicone
elastomer coated ripstop nylon?

Only that tent fabrics have got quite a lot lighter in the last few years and
Spacepackers still weigh the same as they ever did. The lightest tents
available seem generally to have got lighter over the last few years or so.

Post by Peter Clinch
While you're fair to point out the Spacepacker hasn't changed much for
years I think it's more the case that the others have caught it up,
rather than left it behind (as far as fabrics go, anyway

I'm not saying there's anything at all wrong with RS's fabrics, but I don't
believe they're as light as the current crop of ultralight Si and PU proofed
materials.

...snip...

Post by Peter Clinch
I still own and use a Spacepacker, and as it's still a rare example of a
sub-2Kg two person tent with a decent sized porch and doors for each
occupant

Under those specs I think it's unique ? But from my pov I just need one person
capability and I can almost halve the weight by picking a LL Ultra or whatever
it's called. It's true I've wanted a Spacepacker for years though :-)

Cheers,

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Boo
Only that tent fabrics have got quite a lot lighter in the last few
years and Spacepackers still weigh the same as they ever did.

But how many other 2 person tents with a decent sized porch each and
headroom for both to sit up come in at under 2 Kgs? Where they used to
be much lighter than anything else to speak of, now they're comparable
to a crop of others and still lighter than most.

Post by Boo
Under those specs I think it's unique ? But from my pov I just need one
person capability and I can almost halve the weight by picking a LL
Ultra or whatever it's called. It's true I've wanted a Spacepacker for
years though :-)

The layout/design of the Spacepacker doesn't make it ripe for further
sjrinkage, unless the occupant wants to sleep curled up or has legs like
Jamie Andrew's that can can be removed for the night! Because it's
effectively a transverse ridge making it smaller reduces the available
sleeping length, so while it's a light 2 person and a reasonably light
solo you couldn't cut it down easily more than it has been. That's why
the Akto uses more of a tunnel design, but doesn't have such a natural
"this way into the wind" orientation.

For a solo camper I'd say the Akto and Laserlite have had it trumped for
quite a while, but they don't take 2, and the Laser still has a one
door/one porch layout which can be a real PITA.

Pete.

[Paul Saunders]

Post by Peter Clinch
For a solo camper I'd say the Akto and Laserlite have had it trumped
for quite a while, but they don't take 2, and the Laser still has a
one door/one porch layout which can be a real PITA.

No, the Laserlite only has one door, the Laser has two, you can open one or
the other, or both (on the same side of the tent). This gives it a bit more
flexibility in wind.

Although they call it a 2 man, the Laser is really just a 2 door version
with higher ends, but the inner floor dimensions are exactly the same. No
way is it a 2 man tent (well maybe a 2 man emergency shelter but with no
room to move - you could get 2 rucksacks in the porch but there'd be no room
to unpack them).

Paul

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Paul Saunders
No, the Laserlite only has one door, the Laser has two, you can open one or
the other, or both (on the same side of the tent). This gives it a bit more
flexibility in wind.

I stand corrected, but still the problem that should the rear sleeper
need to get out they still have to stumble over the one nearer the door
or do a general staff rearrangement, and that's the main PITA point from
my POV.

Post by Paul Saunders
Although they call it a 2 man, the Laser is really just a 2 door version
with higher ends, but the inner floor dimensions are exactly the same.

That's worth knowing without resorting to various floorplans, thanks.
It looks like the Spacepacker will remain my (most) Ideal 2 Man
Lightweight for a while yet!

Pete.

[Paul Saunders]

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Paul Saunders
No, the Laserlite only has one door, the Laser has two,

I stand corrected, but still the problem that should the rear sleeper
need to get out they still have to stumble over the one nearer the
door or do a general staff rearrangement, and that's the main PITA
point from my POV.

Fair point, but an even more valid point is that simply trying to get two
men in it would be a major PITA. Seriously, it's not a 2 man tent, I don't
know where they got the cheek to call it that. The reason I went for the
Laser rather than the lite was because I didn't want the low ends to be "in
my face" and I fancied the practical advantages of two doors. Even with the
higher ends, two people couldn't sit up in it, only the centre is high
enough to sit up in.

If all you want to do is sleep in it and put your rucksacks in the porch,
then I suppose it may be usable by two people, but there'd be no room to
cook or unpack or anything, you'd have to get out of the tent to do that.
No way could 2 people "live" in it.

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Paul Saunders
Although they call it a 2 man, the Laser is really just a 2 door
version with higher ends, but the inner floor dimensions are exactly
the same.

That's worth knowing without resorting to various floorplans, thanks.
It looks like the Spacepacker will remain my (most) Ideal 2 Man
Lightweight for a while yet!

Sounds like. If the Laser is a two man tent then the Nallo 2 must be a
three man at the very least. In fact, three people would probably be a lot
more comfortable in a Nallo than two would in a Laser.

Paul

[druidh]

Post by Boo

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Boo
I think all these single-hooped designs originally stemmed from a
design by Robert Saunders called the Spacepacker which was a
breakthrough that has in many respects never been exceeded or
equalled. If RS had kept more abreast with modern fabric technology
then I doubt I would have ever owned a tent other than a Spacepacker.

How is Saunders' high tenacity silicone elastomer coated ripstop nylon
particularly lagging behind other firms' high tenacity silicone
elastomer coated ripstop nylon?

Only that tent fabrics have got quite a lot lighter in the last few
years and Spacepackers still weigh the same as they ever did. The
lightest tents available seem generally to have got lighter over the
last few years or so.

Post by Peter Clinch
While you're fair to point out the Spacepacker hasn't changed much for
years I think it's more the case that the others have caught it up,
rather than left it behind (as far as fabrics go, anyway

I'm not saying there's anything at all wrong with RS's fabrics, but I
don't believe they're as light as the current crop of ultralight Si and
PU proofed materials.
....snip...

Post by Peter Clinch
I still own and use a Spacepacker, and as it's still a rare example of
a sub-2Kg two person tent with a decent sized porch and doors for each
occupant

Under those specs I think it's unique ? But from my pov I just need one
person capability and I can almost halve the weight by picking a LL
Ultra or whatever it's called. It's true I've wanted a Spacepacker for
years though :-)
Cheers,

How about we start a petition for an Ultra-Spacepacker? Lighter
materials, lighter poles. What do you think could be shaved off?

(At the right price, I'd be first in the queue for one)


druidh

[Boo]

Post by druidh
How about we start a petition for an Ultra-Spacepacker? Lighter
materials, lighter poles. What do you think could be shaved off?

I did email RS regarding newer, lighter fabrics but he didn't seem amenable to
changing from the ones he's using. I didn't really press the point - after all
he's the tent designer not me - but idstm that there would be the potential for
a truly outstanding product there if he did the obvious thing.

Post by druidh
(At the right price, I'd be first in the queue for one)

Not if I hear about it first you won't be :-)

[Peter Clinch]

Post by druidh
How about we start a petition for an Ultra-Spacepacker? Lighter
materials, lighter poles. What do you think could be shaved off?

The Akto lost 200g going from Kerlon 1500 to Kerlon 1200, so I'd imagine
a similar saving would be theoretically possible, assuming Saunders'
ripstop is basically the same as the Kerlon 1500 (I really don't know
for sure). I'm not entirely convinced I'd want a much lighter pole, as
the way you'd get it would be reducing the diameter. Spacepacker poles
can turn pretty interesting shapes as they are in a real blow (I've been
in one at estimated Force 8, camped high on the Ben, which wasn't any
fun at all but it did stay put) and shaving there would probably reduce
the weatherproofing to a degree that I wouldn't be happy with.
The main inner material isn't really going to get much thinner, I'd
guess, without making it a liability. You could do what Macpac did with
the Microlight's Silly Light Version and replace the groundsheet with
fly material, but that just strikes me as misplaced effort too.

I think a problem might be my impression that Saunders possibly lacks
the commercial size to move into more specialist fly materials than he
already uses. I think Saunders Tentmakers is a cottage industry and I'm
often surprised to see it still going, its visibility in the market is a
fraction of what it used to be :-(

Pete.

[Paul Saunders]

Post by Graham G
I recently bought a Terra Nova Laser tent, intending to get into
lightweight back-packing.

Good choice.

Post by Graham G
I found the tent to be very poor indeed.

I disagree, you have to look at it in context. It's an "ultra-light" tent,
so you have to be prepared to accept some compromises there.

Post by Graham G
The flysheet lacked
rigidity and I was not convinced that I had erected it correctly

I must admit, it is quite fiddly to erect. It took me ages to get it
tensioned correctly the first time I used it, but with practice it gets a
lot easier. It does feel a bit flimsy, but I've been assured that it stands
up well to wind, although I still haven't tested that myself.

Post by Graham G
The instructions told you to erect the flysheet first and then attach
the inner tent: when mine arrived, the inner was already attached to
the flysheet.

Yep, simplest to leave it that way.

Post by Graham G
After more of this sort of frustraion, I returned the tent to the
supplier for a refund.

Sorry to hear that, but if it wasn't exactly what you were looking for I can
understand that.

Post by Graham G
More research led me to the conclusion that the Laser is a poor
imitation of the Hilleberg Akto.

No, not a poor imitation, a lighter imitation. The Akto is much tougher but
not so light. All depends which is the most important to you. If weight
isn't that critical and you intend to use it in all weathers then the Akto
may be a better choice, but if keeping the weight down to a fanatical
minimum, the Laser is. I'm prepared to accept the "apparent" flimsiness of
the Laser when I want to travel ultra-light, but I also own other tents
which I choose to use in different circumstances. (I say "apparent" because
I have it on good authority that it's a lot tougher than it seems.)

I think the Laser is an ideal tent for long distance backpacking on long hot
summer days, the kind of situation where the walking is the most important
thing and you spend very little time inside the tent (in fact, you don't
really need a tent at all in those conditions, but dry weather is never
guaranteed to last for long in this country).

I particuarly like the double doors which can both be opened up, giving a
panoramic view from inside the tent (since the doors are on the side of the
tent) and excellent ventilation.

Paul

[Boo]

Post by Paul Saunders
I must admit, it is quite fiddly to erect. It took me ages to get it
tensioned correctly the first time I used it, but with practice it gets a
lot easier.

I didn't find this at all with my LL. I bought it from Peglars in Arundel and
they demoed it in the shop. I did a trial run on the living room carpet and
then the first time I did it for real was in a fresh breeze in the dark on the
downs near Eastbourne. The wind took the pole bag and generally made things
dificult but the only hard part was tying the pole sleeve up with those tie
things (this only needs to be done the first time you use it though). After
that it's been a breeze (!) to pitch :-)

Post by Paul Saunders
It does feel a bit flimsy, but I've been assured that it stands
up well to wind, although I still haven't tested that myself.

Mine has been fine in that regard, see above and also a couple of nights at
Styhead tarn when it was blowing a hoolie. The tent stood up without problems
but it _is_ very flexible and moves around quite a lot which takes some getting
used to. Also don't make my mistake and weigh the pegs down with rocks - the
elastic guys won't stand up to being rubbed against rocks and mine had to go
back to TN for replacement guys (performed foc by TN).

[Jim Ford]

Post by Paul Saunders
It does feel a bit flimsy, but I've been assured that it stands
up well to wind, although I still haven't tested that myself.

I've found my LaserLite very noisy in a wind - I'm taking earplugs next
time! I also find it very slippery, which makes it a bit difficult to
handle - I guess it's the silicone. I seem to get more condensation in
it than either my Pro Action 1 or T.N.F Tadpole.

Jim Ford

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Jim Ford
I also find it very slippery, which makes it a bit difficult to
handle - I guess it's the silicone.

Yup. Saunders and Hilleberg tents use silicone elastomer coats too, and
are very slidey to the touch.

Pete.

[Jim Ford]

Post by Peter Clinch

I also find it very slippery, which makes it a bit difficult to handle
- I guess it's the silicone.

Yup. Saunders and Hilleberg tents use silicone elastomer coats too, and
are very slidey to the touch.
Pete.

Hey, following this thread has just cost me £71!

I've got a Laserlite, but it's in a lurid red that's too conspicuous. I
just did a Google for Laserlite and came accross the Terra Nova site
advertising ex. factory samples showing Laserlites and flysheets in
royal blue.

http://www.terra-nova.co.uk/terra/productcategory.asp?catid=31

Now, I don't need another whole tent although at £154 it's a good buy,
but I thought a spare/alternative flysheet would be handy - so I've just
ordered one!

Jim Ford

[SammyJoUKBlue]

Dam if i only had £154 spare...

I'll have to stick my my lumping great Hydra I guess.. usless for
backpacking.. only thing I could afford at the time.. thanks for the link

C

Post by Jim Ford

Post by Peter Clinch

I also find it very slippery, which makes it a bit difficult to handle -
I guess it's the silicone.

Yup. Saunders and Hilleberg tents use silicone elastomer coats too, and
are very slidey to the touch.
Pete.

Hey, following this thread has just cost me £71!
I've got a Laserlite, but it's in a lurid red that's too conspicuous. I
just did a Google for Laserlite and came accross the Terra Nova site
advertising ex. factory samples showing Laserlites and flysheets in royal
blue.
http://www.terra-nova.co.uk/terra/productcategory.asp?catid=31
Now, I don't need another whole tent although at £154 it's a good buy, but
I thought a spare/alternative flysheet would be handy - so I've just
ordered one!
Jim Ford

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Jim Ford
Hey, following this thread has just cost me £71!
I've got a Laserlite, but it's in a lurid red that's too conspicuous. I

It looks like either I'm less fussy than you, or The Magic Line is
between £71 and £75... I managed to wangle a hefty discount on my storm
tent, paying "only" £425 rather than the £585 RRP. I could have had a
green one at £500, or the red one I got. It is a bit loud, but £75 is £75!

The Spacepacker is a nice dark green though, which blends in with the
landscape a bit better, though OTOH it's easier to spot the Tarra from a
distance when I'm paddling back to wherever we're camping.

Pete.

[Paul Saunders]

Post by Jim Ford
I seem to get more
condensation in it than either my Pro Action 1 or T.N.F Tadpole.

Last few times I've used it in the rain I've tended to get one or two small
puddles in my Argos tent. No obvious leaks though, so I was wondering if it
could be heavy condensation pooling on the floor? Or am I just being
optimistic?

Paul

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Paul Saunders
Last few times I've used it in the rain I've tended to get one or two small
puddles in my Argos tent. No obvious leaks though, so I was wondering if it
could be heavy condensation pooling on the floor? Or am I just being
optimistic?

I've had damp floors in both my Saunders tents which was condensation on
each occasion. But I've never managed a puddle, even camping on thawing
snow.
Last time I thought it was leaking, called RS to see what a new floor or
inner would be, reply was basically "Don't Panic Yet", and suggested
hanging the inner on a line and filling the floor with water with a
drain point to a bucket. If there were any drips it was a leak,
otherwise it could be ruled out. There were no drips...

Pete.

[Paul Saunders]

Post by Peter Clinch
I've had damp floors in both my Saunders tents which was condensation
on each occasion. But I've never managed a puddle

It's probably a leak then, should I just seal the seams?

Maybe I'll pitch it in the garden now and leave it up for a few days to see
if it leaks with no-one in it, to rule out condensation.

Paul

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Paul Saunders
It's probably a leak then, should I just seal the seams?

Verify it's a leak by putting a puddle on the suspect bit while it's
suspended over a bowl, and seeing if any water drips through.

Post by Paul Saunders
Maybe I'll pitch it in the garden now and leave it up for a few days to see
if it leaks with no-one in it, to rule out condensation.

Might as well cut to the chase and do a test with a real hydrostatic
head (i.e., the puddle). Any waterproof groundsheet should have a HS of
far, far more than a shallow pool.

Pete.

[Paul Saunders]

Post by Peter Clinch
Verify it's a leak by putting a puddle on the suspect bit while it's
suspended over a bowl, and seeing if any water drips through.

I don't know where the suspect bit is though, that's the problem. It might
be coming in through one bit of the flysheet but running down and dripping
from somewhere else. But with the usual condensation inside the flysheet I
couldn't identify an isolated wet bit.

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Paul Saunders
Maybe I'll pitch it in the garden now and leave it up for a few days
to see if it leaks with no-one in it, to rule out condensation.

Might as well cut to the chase and do a test with a real hydrostatic
head (i.e., the puddle). Any waterproof groundsheet should have a HS
of far, far more than a shallow pool.

I don't think the groundsheet is the problem, it must be coming in through
the flysheet somewhere. It's in the garden now anyway. The good old Welsh
weather can do the rest...

Paul

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Paul Saunders
I don't think the groundsheet is the problem, it must be coming in through
the flysheet somewhere. It's in the garden now anyway. The good old Welsh
weather can do the rest...

If you use a hose and/or sprinkler then you can be selective where
it gets "rained" on, and pin down a leak location a little more
accurately.

Pete.

[Paul Saunders]

Post by Peter Clinch

The
good old Welsh weather can do the rest...

If you use a hose and/or sprinkler then you can be selective where
it gets "rained" on, and pin down a leak location a little more
accurately.

Too late now... :-)

Paul

[Paul Saunders]

Post by Paul Saunders

Post by Peter Clinch
If you use a hose and/or sprinkler then you can be selective where
it gets "rained" on, and pin down a leak location a little more
accurately.

Too late now... :-)

Well there doesn't seem to be any water getting in. Not sure that we've had
sufficiently heavy rain for a good test yet, but I've seen no water inside
yet.

However, I have spotted a hole in the groundsheet, which is what you first
suggested, so that may have been the cause all along.

Paul

[Paul Saunders]

Post by Boo

Post by Paul Saunders
I must admit, it is quite fiddly to erect. It took me ages to get it
tensioned correctly the first time I used it, but with practice it
gets a lot easier.

I didn't find this at all with my LL.

Maybe the lite is easier in that respect. What I found when I first put it
up was that on one side the inner was touching the flysheet but on the other
side there was a huge gap. That's what took the fiddling, equalising the
gap on each side.

Post by Boo
After that it's
been a breeze (!) to pitch :-)

I find it to be a lumpy mess of material that only takes shape once you've
got most of the pegs in. Then I have to adjust them all because it's too
tight here and too loose there.

Paul

[Boo]

Post by Paul Saunders
Maybe the lite is easier in that respect. What I found when I first put it
up was that on one side the inner was touching the flysheet but on the other
side there was a huge gap. That's what took the fiddling, equalising the
gap on each side.

Oh, I didn't have that.

Post by Paul Saunders
I find it to be a lumpy mess of material that only takes shape once you've
got most of the pegs in. Then I have to adjust them all because it's too
tight here and too loose there.

Well my general strategy has always been to put a couple of pegs in to stop it
blowing away, put in the pole and then walk round the tent twice, firstly
putting in the pegs and second time around adjusting them and the guys. Doesn't
really take long and my LL is heaps easier to pitch than my old Strormshield 200
ever was.

[Jim Ford]

Post by Boo
Well my general strategy has always been to put a couple of pegs in to
stop it blowing away, put in the pole and then walk round the tent
twice, firstly putting in the pegs and second time around adjusting
them and the guys.

Exactly my stategy. I would add that the 'pilot' pegs I put in are the
ones upwind. Taking down is a reversal of the procedure.

Jim Ford

[Jim Ford]

Jim Ford wrote:

When I get the new flysheet I've ordered for my LaserLite, I'm going to
tie the short cords at either end of the inner with a 'midshipman's
knot'. This knot allows adjustment of the tension and should give a
tighter pitch of the inner and reduce its flappiness.

<troll mode>
Don't you just hate alltogether or flysheet first pitching tents!
</troll mode>

Jim Ford

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Jim Ford
<troll mode>
Don't you just hate alltogether or flysheet first pitching tents!
</troll mode>

<smug class="hilleberg_tarra_owner">
Not when they're done properly, no!
</smug>

;-)

Pete.

[Paul Saunders]

Post by Boo
Well my general strategy has always been to put a couple of pegs in
to stop it blowing away, put in the pole and then walk round the
tent twice, firstly putting in the pegs and second time around
adjusting them and the guys.

Yeah, I guess that's the best way.

Post by Boo
Doesn't really take long and my LL is
heaps easier to pitch than my old Strormshield 200 ever was.

My Laser is more fiddly to pitch than any other tent I've owned (catalogue
tent of unknown origin, Phoenix Phreak, Nallo 2 and Argos Pro Action 1).
I've still got a soft spot for the Phreak as a bomb-proof tent (I laughed at
many a gale in that) but it's way past its sell by date now and I wouldn't
want to carry anything that heavy again.

Paul

[mick]

Post by Graham G
I recently bought a Terra Nova Laser tent, intending to get into lightweight
back-packing. I decided on this tent partly from advertised data and partly
because I had thought that Terra Nova was a good firm. Having had several
cheap tents over many years, this was to be my treat!

I went through the same process recently...
And got a Terra Nova Laserlite, which I am *very* happy with!

Post by Graham G
I found the tent to be very poor indeed. The flysheet lacked rigidity and I
was not convinced that I had erected it correctly because the instructions
There was a device for opening a vent in the flysheet from inside the tent;
I gather this is a recent development and was not mentioned at all in the
instructions. For a long time, I could not undertsand what all these
strings were for.

I don't have the flysheet vent (this is a second-hand tent from their web
store). I agree that their instructions are rather lacking though! I
managed to put the tent up, using the instructions, though.

Post by Graham G
The instructions told you to erect the flysheet first and then attach the
inner tent: when mine arrived, the inner was already attached to the
flysheet.

Mine arrived like that too. Confusing isn't it? ;-)

Post by Graham G
On emailing Terra Nova, I was sent an A4 sheet of revised instructions.
These referred to "the ropes attached to each end of the inner". When I
emailed Terra Nova to say that my inner had no ropes attached, I was told
that this part did not apply to the Terra Nova!

It may not apply to the Laser (I don't know, having never seen one), but
it does apply to the Laserlite.

Post by Graham G
After more of this sort of frustraion, I returned the tent to the supplier
for a refund.

Sad...

Post by Graham G
More research led me to the conclusion that the Laser is a poor imitation of
the Hilleberg Akto. I have now bought one of these and am delighted. One
dealer said that the Laser is a poor design, but that some other Terra Nova
tents are very good.

I would probably have got an Akto eventually if this hadn't turned up. Now
I'm not sure that I would want one. The Laserlite is absolutely ideal for
me - and it can stand some nasty gusts of wind too! I tested that out on
the Bowland fells a couple of weeks ago. Thought the thing was going to
take off overnight, but when I checked it over the next morning not even
one of the little pegs had come loose - in quite softish ground. I did use
the two guy points on the hoop though - those guys weren't actually tied
on when I got it. As for the TN tents being poor imitations of the Akto,
I'm not sure about that. They follow a different path really, although
they are similar in several ways. The Laserlite in particular is
definitely optimised as an ultralightweight tent that can handle 3-season
use. The Akto is more of a heavy duty 4-season tent, but sacrifices weight
to manage that. I know which I would rather carry up Parlick... ;-)

Post by Graham G
Incidentally, the Laser is made in China; I wonder how much of the £200+
cost goes to China?

That's interesting. Their web site definitely says "made in the uk".
http://www.terra-nova.co.uk/terra/home.shtml
IIRC my tent has labels sewn into it with the initials of the sewers and
checkers - and not in chinese. ;-) I'll have a proper look next time I
unpack it!

[Graham G]

I find folks are amazingly forgiving about the Laser tent. Am I being
unreasonable in expecting that if I pay £200 for a little tent, the
instructions will be more or less accurate?

The Akto caused me no trouble at all and is a much more stable tent. It is
not SO much heavier.

Graham

Post by mick

Post by Graham G
I recently bought a Terra Nova Laser tent, intending to get into lightweight
back-packing. I decided on this tent partly from advertised data and partly
because I had thought that Terra Nova was a good firm. Having had several
cheap tents over many years, this was to be my treat!

I went through the same process recently...
And got a Terra Nova Laserlite, which I am *very* happy with!

Post by Graham G
I found the tent to be very poor indeed. The flysheet lacked rigidity and I
was not convinced that I had erected it correctly because the
instructions
There was a device for opening a vent in the flysheet from inside the tent;
I gather this is a recent development and was not mentioned at all in the
instructions. For a long time, I could not undertsand what all these
strings were for.

I don't have the flysheet vent (this is a second-hand tent from their web
store). I agree that their instructions are rather lacking though! I
managed to put the tent up, using the instructions, though.

Post by Graham G
The instructions told you to erect the flysheet first and then attach the
inner tent: when mine arrived, the inner was already attached to the
flysheet.

Mine arrived like that too. Confusing isn't it? ;-)

Post by Graham G
On emailing Terra Nova, I was sent an A4 sheet of revised instructions.
These referred to "the ropes attached to each end of the inner". When I
emailed Terra Nova to say that my inner had no ropes attached, I was told
that this part did not apply to the Terra Nova!

It may not apply to the Laser (I don't know, having never seen one), but
it does apply to the Laserlite.

Post by Graham G
After more of this sort of frustraion, I returned the tent to the supplier
for a refund.

Sad...

Post by Graham G
More research led me to the conclusion that the Laser is a poor imitation of
the Hilleberg Akto. I have now bought one of these and am delighted.
One
dealer said that the Laser is a poor design, but that some other Terra Nova
tents are very good.

I would probably have got an Akto eventually if this hadn't turned up. Now
I'm not sure that I would want one. The Laserlite is absolutely ideal for
me - and it can stand some nasty gusts of wind too! I tested that out on
the Bowland fells a couple of weeks ago. Thought the thing was going to
take off overnight, but when I checked it over the next morning not even
one of the little pegs had come loose - in quite softish ground. I did use
the two guy points on the hoop though - those guys weren't actually tied
on when I got it. As for the TN tents being poor imitations of the Akto,
I'm not sure about that. They follow a different path really, although
they are similar in several ways. The Laserlite in particular is
definitely optimised as an ultralightweight tent that can handle 3-season
use. The Akto is more of a heavy duty 4-season tent, but sacrifices weight
to manage that. I know which I would rather carry up Parlick... ;-)

Post by Graham G
Incidentally, the Laser is made in China; I wonder how much of the £200+
cost goes to China?

That's interesting. Their web site definitely says "made in the uk".
http://www.terra-nova.co.uk/terra/home.shtml
IIRC my tent has labels sewn into it with the initials of the sewers and
checkers - and not in chinese. ;-) I'll have a proper look next time I
unpack it!
--
Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!)
Remove blockage to use my email address
Web: http://www.nascom.info & http://mixpix.batcave.net

[Paul Saunders]

Post by Graham G
I find folks are amazingly forgiving about the Laser tent.

What's to forgive? It hasn't let me down yet.

Post by Graham G
Am I being
unreasonable in expecting that if I pay £200 for a little tent, the
instructions will be more or less accurate?

I suppose not. Never really thought of tents as the sort of thing that
really needed instructions though, basically you just thread the poles and
stick the pegs in. Yeah, I know, there are a few fiddly bits that had me
wondering for a while, but it's hardly on a par with buying a digicam or a
complex piece of computer software is it?

Post by Graham G
The Akto caused me no trouble at all and is a much more stable tent.

True, but no-one's yet complained of the Laser being unable to cope with bad
weather.

Post by Graham G
It is not SO much heavier.

50%. All depends if you want to travel light or ultra-light. If you apply
the same philosophy to every item you buy it can add up to a big difference.

Paul

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Graham G
I find folks are amazingly forgiving about the Laser tent.

It weighs less than just about anything else, which forgives it a
great deal every second it's being carried anywhere!

Post by Graham G
Am I being
unreasonable in expecting that if I pay £200 for a little tent, the
instructions will be more or less accurate?

On the one hand no, it's not in any way unreasonable, but on the
other it's something that can be sorted, and once it has been it
becomes a non-issue, and then the lighter weight is to your advantage.

Post by Graham G
The Akto caused me no trouble at all and is a much more stable tent. It is
not SO much heavier.

But it is heavier. Which is not unrelated to why it's more stable!
It's about 250g difference between a Laser and an Akto which is
indeed not that much, but if you sum up lots of "not much" it comes
to a bit more than not much...

Both tents appear to be viable products aimed at slightly different
market points: it isn't a case of "this is better than this", it's
a case of "this does different things optimally", and since your
particular needs are better served by the Akto, that's the right
tent for you. But not necessarily the next person.

Me, I prefer a bit more space and entrance flexibility plus the
ability to take an extra person, so I use a Spacepacker, at the
expenmse of not SO much more weight. But more does remain more.

Pete.

[Boo]

Post by Graham G
I find folks are amazingly forgiving about the Laser tent.

Well, I have the LaserLite not the Laser but I've really nothing to forgive it.
It does everything I want and is nearly as light as my bivi bag.

Post by Graham G
Am I being
unreasonable in expecting that if I pay £200 for a little tent, the
instructions will be more or less accurate?

No, there's no excuse for bad instructions. Having said that, if it took a
couple of hours or a half a day of playing around to get a proper understanding
of the use of the tent then that would make up for bad instructions henceforth.
Also the instructions for the LL were OK. Also, also, I don't really think
that by supplying the tent you as you received it, with the inner and outer
already connected, TN were really doing you a disservice ?

Post by Graham G
The Akto caused me no trouble at all and is a much more stable tent. It is
not SO much heavier.

The one I weighed was 50% heavier than the LL I bought. I'm given to understand
recent Actos are lighter than this, but I haven't weighed one. IME the LL isn't
at all unstable but I've never been in an Acto overnight to compare it. People
who own one do seem to like the Acto in that respect as well. I guess there's
room for more than one similar tent in the market (if not dozens :-).

[mick]

Post by Graham G
I find folks are amazingly forgiving about the Laser tent. Am I being
unreasonable in expecting that if I pay £200 for a little tent, the
instructions will be more or less accurate?

Nope, not unreasonable. However, putting a tent up is hardly on a par with
operating a new digital amp or something is it? I can forgive missing
details. I would have been happier if it had been supplied ready to
assemble according to the instructions though. I would also have
appreciated more information on "pitching as one", which doesn't even get
a mention IIRC.

Post by Graham G
The Akto caused me no trouble at all and is a much more stable tent. It
is not SO much heavier.

Glad you found one that you are happy with! :-) As I commented previously
though, I personally prefer the reduced weight of the Laserlite. There is
certainly a "horses for courses" element here. :-)

[Mike Clark]

Post by Graham G
I find folks are amazingly forgiving about the Laser tent. Am I being
unreasonable in expecting that if I pay £200 for a little tent, the
instructions will be more or less accurate?
The Akto caused me no trouble at all and is a much more stable tent.
It is not SO much heavier.
Graham

My wife has an Akto and we also have a Nallo2 GT, and both are well
designed and well constructed. Also the information and support from
Hilleberg is very good. Both pitch very easily and stand up well to
adverse conditions, and both represent a good compromise between weight
and utility in my opinion.

I've also got a Terra Nova Quasar which reached the end of its
servicable life last year. The design is fine, but over the years I have
had much to complain about with the build quality, particularly problems
with poles, but also I've had problems with customer service from Terra
Nova. The company always seemed reluctanct to accept that problems with
the tent were to do with the quality of the materials and instead
attempted to blame all problems on the user. I know of others who have
had the same experience.

Mike

[Boo]

Post by Mike Clark
I've had problems with customer service from Terra
Nova. The company always seemed reluctanct to accept that problems with
the tent were to do with the quality of the materials and instead
attempted to blame all problems on the user. I know of others who have
had the same experience.

Oh, that's unexpected - my dealings with TN have always been entirely
unproblematical : they first repaired and then replaced the zip on my Jupiter
bivi bag without quibble or cost, then when I stupidly put rocks on the pegs for
the LaserLite they replaced the consequently chafed guys f.o.c and also
siupplied me with a yard or so of spare guy material. My request for them to
debit my card for the spare guy material was ignored so that came f.o.c. too.

So in sum I've had generally fine service from TN.

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Boo
Oh, that's unexpected - my dealings with TN have always been entirely

Mike's Quasar pole problems have echoes with 2 friends of mine, both of
whom experienced split poles which, according to TN, were their fault
and not TN's, and which knowing the people involved and their usage I
feel is not really likely. Expense and bad feeling followed :-(

But we are at n=3 here, which is not enough for Full Damnation. Further
along these lines, I've always had good service from Saunders, though
I've read of more than one complaint suggesting it's completely
hopeless. Mileage clearly varies with customer service and individual
product quality, as with all things.

Pete.

[Mike Clark]

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Boo
Oh, that's unexpected - my dealings with TN have always been entirely

Mike's Quasar pole problems have echoes with 2 friends of mine, both of
whom experienced split poles which, according to TN, were their fault
and not TN's, and which knowing the people involved and their usage I
feel is not really likely. Expense and bad feeling followed :-(

Yes I know personally of three other members of my own club who
experienced similar problems to mine and had similar experience to me
when they attempted to get the faults repaired.

The interesting thing is that over the life of the tent (about 10 years)
a majority of the original pole sections have been replaced, but I've
never had any problems with the replaced sections failing again!

Although on several occasions I did manage to get the sections replaced
FOC after arguing, on most occasions I eventually ended up paying for
the repairs simply because I needed the tent which was otherwise still
serviceable and I couldn't be bothered to take legal action to enforce
my rights.

Post by Peter Clinch
But we are at n=3 here, which is not enough for Full Damnation.

n=6 now since I doubt if my 3 friends are the same as yours.

Post by Peter Clinch
Further along these lines, I've always had good service from
Saunders, though I've read of more than one complaint suggesting it's
completely hopeless. Mileage clearly varies with customer service
and individual product quality, as with all things.
Pete.

The fact is that such poor customer service is likely to backfire,
particularly when selling value added goods that are not sold on the
basis of lowest cost. Since my problems with Terra Nova over the Quasar
I've had good experience with customer service over tents from both
Hilleberg and Macpac and so they get my vote of approval for any future
consideration.

In a similar vein I had bad experiences with quality and repairs of a
Karrimor Hotroute rucksack and as a result I subsequently tried
rucksacks from POD and from Macpac, both of whom I would now recommend
in preference to Karrimor.

None of these brands sells on the basis of being cheap and cheerful and
thus I expect to receive quality and service in respect of the premium
cost.

Mike

[Boo]

Post by Peter Clinch
Mike's Quasar pole problems have echoes with 2 friends of mine, both of
whom experienced split poles which, according to TN, were their fault
and not TN's, and which knowing the people involved and their usage I
feel is not really likely. Expense and bad feeling followed :-(

Understood. It always seems to me that firms shoot themselves in the foot when
they behave like that - the goodwill gained by a free repair or supply of a
spare part must be worth more than the price of the fix both in new business
from the same source and also word of mouth recommendation.

As I said, my own personal experience of TN has been fine, and I'm not a party
to any of these other incidents so can't really comment, but I think firms that
generally give the user the benefit of the doubt will do better for it in the
long term.

[Peter Clinch]

I think firms that generally give the user the benefit of the doubt will
do better for it in the long term.

Absolutely. All else being equal I'd sooner buy from an operation
(shop and/or manufacturer) where I've had good customer service
from them in the past. And in quite a few cases all else /is/
pretty much equal (vanilla fleece pullovers are pretty much of a
muchness, for example).

Pete.

[Graham G]

I asked Terra Nova about their claim that the tents were made in UK when I
had seen "Made in China" on the one I had. Their reply was that some are
made in UK. I would have thought that their claim is in breach of
legislation and I shall tell them so!!

Graham

Post by mick

Post by Graham G
I recently bought a Terra Nova Laser tent, intending to get into lightweight
back-packing. I decided on this tent partly from advertised data and partly
because I had thought that Terra Nova was a good firm. Having had several
cheap tents over many years, this was to be my treat!

I went through the same process recently...
And got a Terra Nova Laserlite, which I am *very* happy with!

Post by Graham G
I found the tent to be very poor indeed. The flysheet lacked rigidity and I
was not convinced that I had erected it correctly because the
instructions
There was a device for opening a vent in the flysheet from inside the tent;
I gather this is a recent development and was not mentioned at all in the
instructions. For a long time, I could not undertsand what all these
strings were for.

I don't have the flysheet vent (this is a second-hand tent from their web
store). I agree that their instructions are rather lacking though! I
managed to put the tent up, using the instructions, though.

Post by Graham G
The instructions told you to erect the flysheet first and then attach the
inner tent: when mine arrived, the inner was already attached to the
flysheet.

Mine arrived like that too. Confusing isn't it? ;-)

Post by Graham G
On emailing Terra Nova, I was sent an A4 sheet of revised instructions.
These referred to "the ropes attached to each end of the inner". When I
emailed Terra Nova to say that my inner had no ropes attached, I was told
that this part did not apply to the Terra Nova!

It may not apply to the Laser (I don't know, having never seen one), but
it does apply to the Laserlite.

Post by Graham G
After more of this sort of frustraion, I returned the tent to the supplier
for a refund.

Sad...

Post by Graham G
More research led me to the conclusion that the Laser is a poor imitation of
the Hilleberg Akto. I have now bought one of these and am delighted.
One
dealer said that the Laser is a poor design, but that some other Terra Nova
tents are very good.

I would probably have got an Akto eventually if this hadn't turned up. Now
I'm not sure that I would want one. The Laserlite is absolutely ideal for
me - and it can stand some nasty gusts of wind too! I tested that out on
the Bowland fells a couple of weeks ago. Thought the thing was going to
take off overnight, but when I checked it over the next morning not even
one of the little pegs had come loose - in quite softish ground. I did use
the two guy points on the hoop though - those guys weren't actually tied
on when I got it. As for the TN tents being poor imitations of the Akto,
I'm not sure about that. They follow a different path really, although
they are similar in several ways. The Laserlite in particular is
definitely optimised as an ultralightweight tent that can handle 3-season
use. The Akto is more of a heavy duty 4-season tent, but sacrifices weight
to manage that. I know which I would rather carry up Parlick... ;-)

Post by Graham G
Incidentally, the Laser is made in China; I wonder how much of the £200+
cost goes to China?

That's interesting. Their web site definitely says "made in the uk".
http://www.terra-nova.co.uk/terra/home.shtml
IIRC my tent has labels sewn into it with the initials of the sewers and
checkers - and not in chinese. ;-) I'll have a proper look next time I
unpack it!
--
Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!)
Remove blockage to use my email address
Web: http://www.nascom.info & http://mixpix.batcave.net

[Simon Caldwell]

Post by Graham G
I asked Terra Nova about their claim that the tents were made in UK when I
had seen "Made in China" on the one I had. Their reply was that some are
made in UK. I would have thought that their claim is in breach of
legislation and I shall tell them so!!
Graham

It sounds to me like your complaint should be with the shop you bought
it from - assuming they gave you advice as to which tent was right for
you. If they didn't, then the fault is with your own research.

The Laser is an excellent tent *for the purpose for which it was
designed* - which is to be as light as possible.

You obviously what something more in the way of robustness and
comfort, which are bought at the expense of weight. Fair enough if
those are your priorities - they're not mine, at least not for the
uses I had in mind for the Laser. I actually bought a Laser Large at
the same time, for those occasions when I want something light but
also want more comfort (both tents are used for 2 people). The Akto
would probably be better in the latter case, but cost over twice as
much!

As for country of origin - if you asked before you bought where the
tent you were buying was made (I'm assuming it was mail order/internet
as it's clearly marked on the label) and were misled then you may have
cause for complaint, but otherwise I do0n't really see the problem.

S.

[Paul]

snip

I actually bought a Laser Large at the same time, for those occasions when
I want something light but

Post by Simon Caldwell
also want more comfort (both tents are used for 2 people). The Akto
would probably be better in the latter case, but cost over twice as
much!

snip

I'd be really interested to hear of your experiences of the Laser Large. I
bought a Mountain Equipment Dragonfly last year as a replacement for a
Saunders Jetpacker plus. Although this was a great tent, I now feel it was a
mistake as I could really feel the extra weight when hiking in the Pyrenees
(which was at least 100g more than advertised incidentally). On my short
list now is the Laser Large and Saunders Spacepacker as the compromise
between weight and space seems about right for 2 people

Cheers

Paul

[Jim Ford]

Post by Paul
On my short
list now is the Laser Large and Saunders Spacepacker as the compromise
between weight and space seems about right for 2 people

Have you considered a TNF Tadpole?

Jim Ford

[Simon Caldwell]

Post by Paul
I'd be really interested to hear of your experiences of the Laser Large.

None at all so far - I haven't even pitched it in the back garden as
it's always been raining when I've been at home!

S.

[Graham G]

The problem is that their web site says that their tents are made in the UK
when it is clear that many are not!

I call that fraud.

Graham

Post by Simon Caldwell

Post by Graham G
I asked Terra Nova about their claim that the tents were made in UK when I
had seen "Made in China" on the one I had. Their reply was that some are
made in UK. I would have thought that their claim is in breach of
legislation and I shall tell them so!!
Graham

It sounds to me like your complaint should be with the shop you bought
it from - assuming they gave you advice as to which tent was right for
you. If they didn't, then the fault is with your own research.
The Laser is an excellent tent *for the purpose for which it was
designed* - which is to be as light as possible.
You obviously what something more in the way of robustness and
comfort, which are bought at the expense of weight. Fair enough if
those are your priorities - they're not mine, at least not for the
uses I had in mind for the Laser. I actually bought a Laser Large at
the same time, for those occasions when I want something light but
also want more comfort (both tents are used for 2 people). The Akto
would probably be better in the latter case, but cost over twice as
much!
As for country of origin - if you asked before you bought where the
tent you were buying was made (I'm assuming it was mail order/internet
as it's clearly marked on the label) and were misled then you may have
cause for complaint, but otherwise I do0n't really see the problem.
S.
--
Oppose ID cards and the database state
http://www.no2id.com/

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Graham G
The problem is that their web site says that their tents are made in the UK
when it is clear that many are not!
I call that fraud.

So take it to the Advertising Standards Agency, who have a bit more
power in the matter than uk.rec.walking!

Pete.

[Simon Caldwell]

Post by Graham G
The problem is that their web site says that their tents are made in the UK
when it is clear that many are not!
I call that fraud.

Not fraud, but misleading advertising, and if you bought on that basis
you'd be entitled to a refund.

Mind you, according to their website, the Laserlite is still in
production and the Competition doesn't exist!

S.